By Visual Production
Visual Production: It is said that Mori Art Museum will erect an art museum in Shanghai. Could you please tell us why it is in Shanghai rather than in other countries?
Fumio Nanjo: It’s hard to explain (laugh). First of all, a Mori building is being built in Shanghai. Nonetheless, opening an art museum in Shanghai is yet to be decided. There is some multifunctional space in the building while no final decision has been made concerning its usage. Founding a Mori art museum there is likely to face condemnation (laugh). Over half of the building have been constructed, and it is worthwhile to consider what kind of cultural projects we could realize there. We learned in Japan that there plans to build over 200 art museums in Shanghai in the future. Is that the case? If this is true, it would be unnecessary of us to establish our museum in Shanghai (laugh).
VP: The plan is to establish hundreds of museums, instead of art museums.
Fumio: Because in English the word ’museum’ by itself doesn’t distinguish museums and art museums, it does sound like a frightfully large number (laugh). Sozaki is also planning to build an art museum in the Zendai Simalay Centre. When I attended an international art curator conference organized by UNESCO in London in November Last year, I saw a number of designs Sozaki created for China, including the one for Shanghai. Additionally, a British designed a gallery for Nanjing and projects of the kind were many. A lot of people from Europe are wanting to travel to China to see these new art museums. The first museum director of the Mori Art Museum David Elliott, also a former director of the Museum of Modern Art in Oxford, has said that it’s his wish to be a museum director in China at some point in time.
VP: What do you think of Chinese contemporary art?
Fumio: It’s gaining strength and fostering many extraordinary artists. Because of the Chinese art market, the Asian art market is subsequently attention. In the 1980s it was basically European and American culture that lad a predominant role in the world. and in the mid 1980s, the top (Eurocentric) art museums in the world began to pay attention to Japan, then Korea. In the 1990s, their attention switched to China. In fact art in Japan no longer attracts attention (laugh).We can’t really compare the level of attention that China is receiving now to the attention in Japan and Korea in the past, because the number of artists that has appeared in China far surpasses Japan and Korea. The distinctive characteristic of Chinese art is that it very clearly expresses the artists’ ideas. Japanese contemporary art has a high level of meticulousness, whereas Chinese contemporary art might appear relatively crude, it is able to express the artists’ concepts very clearly. I think with contemporary art, rather than aiming for details and meticulousness, the clearer the expression of ideas, the more powerful it is. Chinese contemporary art heads towards the expression of ideology and concepts, while Japanese contemporary art pursues perfection in details. However an excessive focus on ideology might result in the direction of ‘shock art’ (for instance, eating human flesh, cutting one’s flesh). I don’t think this is a good way of making art, but I think marking powerful statements has also became the trend. For example with Ai Weiwei’s work, he expresses his ideas very sharply and clearly. I haven’t met Ai Weiwei before, when I went to China Art Archive & Warehouse he wasn’t there I hope we’ll have the chance to meet in the future. I also saw his Fuck Off catalogue at the Vitamin Creative Space in Guangzhou, I find it very interesting. There are many different types in Chinese contemporary art, and it’s interesting to focus on a particular field.
VP: During the 1980s and 1990s, Chinese contemporary art was essentially subversive, exposing and criticizing reality. After 2000, however, we no longer find the shadows of politics and instead it turned back to focus on the art itself. What do you think of it?
Fumio: As early as the mid of 1990s I found a group of artists in China whose works focus on the daily life, with gradually lesser traces of politics. This includes the Chinese artist Liu Jianhua, whom I invited to Singapore Biennial and whose work does not challenge politics. The themes and approaches in Xu Bing and Liu Jianhua’s works are in fact universal. But for people outside of China, they might think that works without strong politic implications aren’t ‘powerful’ enough. For example Liu Jianhua’s work of plane explosions the theme is tragic and dramatic, and the same time he highlights ceramics as the material. Liu Jianhua has found the link that connects international language with his own, and he’s an example of a good artist. Now he’s leaving the discipline of ceramics to look for other kinds of materials in my opinion, contemporary artists should not be confined to certain materials, but on the other hand, what are the risks and challenges the artist would face if he abandons his characteristic medium which is symbolic of his identity? This is a big challenge for Liu Jianhua.
VP: With the economic development in China, Chinese people start to project a confident imagination into the future, and a lot of young artists reveal a kind of aesthetic, narcissistic feeling in their works that is unlike the ‘shock’ art from before. How would you compare this trend to the modern progresses in Japan in Korea?
Fumio: I think a country’s economic and artistic developments do not necessarily progress in the direction of aesthetics, and this include the progress caused by economic development itself. There are many people who are critical of this situation. In America in the 60s, the commercialization of galleries brought similar problems. Artists are likely to protest when the industry becomes too commercialized, preventing galleries form purchasing their works, and creating challenges for the galleries to manage these works in the market. Artists inevitably need to collaborate with galleries, and the ideal environment is for the artist to maintain a distance form society, but at the same time manages to sustain his work and lifestyle.
VP: As the marker thrives, the major problem Chinese contemporary art faces is that Chinese artists have become increasingly more idolized and fashion-driven, losing their pioneering and critical attitude. There are less and less preservers of the avant-garde.
Fumio: Sen no Rikyu, a great Japanese tea master, committed suicide. When Toyotomi Hideyoshi united Japan he was prepared to build a gold tea house, a plan which was strongly opposed by Sen no Rikyu, whose approach aspired towards the spirit of simplicity and placidity in tea culture. This completely contradicted Toyotomi’s glamorous and luxurious style, who in turn could not tolerate Sen no Rikyu’s earthy simplicity. A clash was inevitable between someone who resarded tea culture as a spiritual art, and a powerful political figure such as Toyotomi eventually Sen no Rikyu chose death by hara-kiri. Art critics are often in similar situations. Both artists and critics should place themselves outside of the pyramid of the social system and maintain a sense of critical thinking and judgment. Though without a social background, it would be impossible to find subject matters or to continue to survive this is a real paradox.
VP: What is your opinion on biennials and triennials happening all over the world these days?
Fumio: For people who chase biennials around the word, there are definitely a lot. A biennial should have a close relationship with the community and geography of its locale, and for the local people, it gives them a rare chance to be involved and to appreciate the artworks. Thus it’s an important mission for a biennial to be able to create an strong tie with the local culture.
VP: What do you think of biennials in China?
Fumio: I am quite familiar with the biennials in Shanghai and Guangzhou. The Shanghai Biennale is more international, but the Guangzhou Triennial is attractive in that it shows a large amount of Chinese artists’ work to foreigners, the Guangzhou Art Museum is one of the best developed institutions of Chinese contemporary art. Last year I went to see to the Moscow Triennial, however most of the participants where European artists, I was disappointed that there were few Russian artists and even less whom I am familiar with. I think the Guangzhou Triennial is the most interesting one in China. It is very important for international and local artists to compete in the same arena.
VP: What is the contemporary art collection like in the Mori Art Museum?
Fumio: There are two aspects of exchange one is to introduce things that aren’t familiar, another is to introduce new art. When you put the two together it becomes a kind of exchange for the audience. when a country’s economic development attracts attention, its artistic development also benefits. For example in countries like Spain, Korea and India, in the course of their economic development they held the Olympics, as the World Expos. In the 60s the focus of the world was Japan, in the 90s Korea, and in the 21st century it’s China. To see whether the future of true Chinese contemporary art will stay or not, we will have to see after 2010.
VP: What is the contemporary art collection like in the Mori Art Museum?
Fumio: Currently the collection contains mainly modern Asian artworks. We don’t have a lot of Chinese works in the collection, about dozens of it. Chinese contemporary art is too expensive…
(Courtesy of Gu Zheng)